Curse

slimreb · Dec 04, 2006, 05:04 PM // 17:04

Crom makes some good points.

I personally have no problems with the setup the way it is right now. Yes people want to run with other people. I run with guildies and that is it. I have had way too many horrible PUGs to deal with them anymore. I went through NF with my Tyrian born Ranger first. I leveled the heroes up then went forward.

Even if you did not want to level them up it was not too big of an issue for me. Most mission I was able to do with a group of 7 just fine.

One advantage I did have over some others is I already had the Elites and a large number of skills unlocked. The ones for the Paragon I used Balthazar faction to unlock the ones I wanted for the builds I wanted Morghan to use.

Outfitting my heroes were really simple also. All I had to do was jump back to Tyria/Cantha and get the collector weapons. Then just salvage mods off weapons I found in NF to complete the weapons. For the runes I really do not see the issue. The heroes do not need the runes to be effective. Almost all my heroes have no runes on them other than ones I found while playing.

Plus for me the heroes did an outstanding job throughout the entire game. I even capped all the Elites using pretty much nothing except heroes and henches. I even capped all the ones in the Realm of Torment using nothing but heroes and henchies and had very little problems doing so. I did much better using hero/hench exploring the ROT than with a PUG.

I can agree that it is frustrating to have to use a hero that you do not want to use. I agree that it is a bit much to have a non-NF character come over then be forced to use a lvl6 Dunkoro. Though has been stated they are part of the story line. I for one would rather be able to control them than have them as an NPC that would make the mission fail if they died. I mean how many times have you had a mission fail because of an unexpected Leeroy move from the non-controllable NPC?

So for me a good alternative would be to make the heroes be level 20 right off the bat for every toon that comes over from a different chapter. As for the argument about Dunkoro having the same HP as a lvl20 when doing the Consulate Docks mission. Yes indeed he does but he also has the AL of a lvl6 hero thus the added HP does not amount to much. He also only has the attribute points of a lvl6 hero. Thus the added HP really does not make up for the area that you are bringing him into.

ramma77 · Dec 04, 2006, 05:23 PM // 17:23

o.O you shouldn't have any low level heroes....

it takes 15 minutes and 2 scrolls to get them several levels. that's 600g. if you;re good enough and fast enough. one scroll.

i thnk heroes get xp from quests as well so add the lowest ones when collecting rewards.

got a low level koss or melonni? give them a bow and apply poison while you level them.

shirosae · Dec 04, 2006, 05:35 PM // 17:35

/signed

Evilsod · Dec 04, 2006, 08:51 PM // 20:51

Quote:

One advantage I did have over some others is I already had the Elites and a large number of skills unlocked. The ones for the Paragon I used Balthazar faction to unlock the ones I wanted for the builds I wanted Morghan to use.

I'm not wasting Balthazaar Faction (or even time doing PvP when i don't want to) on skills i intend to capture on my Ranger (ie, elites) or ones that i can buy. Balthazaar Faction is reserved solely for Mesmer, Necromancer and Monk skills been as they're all on my other account.

Having to level hero isn't even the whole problem... The fact i have to take the frigging hero in the first place is. I'll level Koss up in my own time via quest rewards if i want. He has no place in my build. Thats where the problem is. If i wanted to use the frigging hero i would have him in my party already.

Low level heros can be amusing anyway... watching Koss run upto the Master of Magic boss in Consulate Docks and dieing in 2 hits, getting ressed then running up and headbutting him

Arkantos · Dec 04, 2006, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Learn2Adapt imo.

explodemyheart · Dec 04, 2006, 10:51 PM // 22:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belicosos Finos

I think Dasha Vestibule requires Margrid in your party. As its the counterpart to Dzagonar Bastion mission (which requires Whispers).

Possibly. I've only done it once, doing it for someone else who had chosen Margrid and I wasn't the party leader, so if she was required they took care of it and I just didn't pay attention.

I think you're right though, since it's Dzagonur's counterpart, it'd make sense that Margrid is required.

quickmonty · Dec 04, 2006, 11:17 PM // 23:17

Reading all the complaints about having to take a specific profession hero on a mission reminds me of all the leet snobs forming pugs that only want certain professions .... the 'ideal build' for the mission. Maybe this is A-net's way of forcing us to work with certain professions, whether or not we want to?

I brought my Tyrian ranger over to Elona, before I even thought about making a new character. I had no problems leveling the heroes up or completing missions. There were times that I didn't like the choice forced upon me, but the missions aren't all that difficult.

Bottom line is that A-net is trying to please as many people as possible. Not everyone is going to like the way things are done, and if enough people voice negative opinions things will change, if not now then in future chapters. And always remember ..... it's just a game.

Coran Ironclaw · Dec 04, 2006, 11:46 PM // 23:46

I like the story as it is. Forcing a here to be with you increase the link you have to that hero, as you have you raise him.

/notsigned

donaldbrooke · Dec 05, 2006, 01:05 AM // 01:05

I dont see a problem with leveling up hero's If you want the sunspear and lightbringer titles you have to harvest the required points. It is simple enough to take a low level hero with you while doing this farming and kill 2 birds with 1 stone

Paperfly · Dec 05, 2006, 02:03 AM // 02:03

My objection to the mandatory heroes has only been touched on in passing so far, but it's this:

It's part of Nightfall's continued, malicious war on the pickup group.

It adds controversy to the group formation process - and there's already plenty of that, thanks! It takes up a slot that could be filled by a human... By a human of a specific profession, mind you. It creates a rift between Elonians and foreigners. And the presence of any hero at all brings up the political tension in-mission whereby you have to trust the hero's controller to set flags and AI levels sensibly (and occasionally manually use skills).

...

The thing is, the hero system is overintegrated into the game. Heroes are inherently a compromise - just like henchies are - to how the game should play in an ideal scenario. However, henchies/heroes are necessary to compensate for the fact that you can't conjure agreeable human players to go with you every time you leave an outpost.

The problem is that the hero system went from ugly (but necessary) gap-filler to marketing bullet point. Since the focus for Nightfall was on squeezing as much novelty from the Guild Wars engine as possible, the writers were obviously driven to weave them into the story everywhere they could. Hey, Nightfall's about heroes, right? That's the differentiating factor from the other two chapters! This left us with a bunch of negative effects on the gameplay that trickled down from the original poor decision, but couldn't really be mitigated.

I've said it before - Factions had some incriedible design plusses marred by flaws in its execution. Unmanned by the complaints, ANet worked their butts off on the execution for Nightfall, but started from a scatterbrained pile of compromises as their core design.

The difference between Windows 2000 and Windows ME, if you like.

Incidentally, Attack at the Kodash Bazaar, the primary quest that requires two heroes, is such a poor design choice that someone ought to be fired over it. I'm not kidding! If someone is blind to how thorougly this destroys the group play experience, how it breaks the flow of the game, and the logistical annoyances it forces on a party (read: diminution of fun!), they shouldn't be making games for a living. Go write non-interactive novels if all you care about is presentation over gameplay.

Again, not kidding. This is public-apology-and-promise-not-to-do-it-again level blundering.

Arcanis the Omnipotent · Dec 05, 2006, 04:49 AM // 04:49

Uh ok, about all the complaining about "I dont want to spend the time leveling up heroes I'm never going to use."

Here's something you may have missed. In quests that dont require a hero, use the heroes you want, level them up through fighting. Then before you accept the quest reward, switch to 3 you hardly use. When you get the EXP from the Quest, they get an exact copy of that same ammount of EXP as if they had done the quest.

I watched Koss level up many times doing that.

Kool Pajamas · Dec 05, 2006, 06:32 AM // 06:32

/not signed

I think the reason they did it this way was so they wouldnt have those stupid missions where "NPC X" must not die or you fail the mission.

freekedoutfish · Dec 05, 2006, 09:25 AM // 09:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kool Pajamas

/not signed

I think the reason they did it this way was so they wouldnt have those stupid missions where "NPC X" must not die or you fail the mission.

Thats one key points I keep trying to make, but it seems most people in here would be happy having NPCs which we cant control instead of ONE required Hero in your team.

It makes me question whether most of these have been playing GuildWars long to have never experienced how bad NPCs are in missions and quests.

aron searle · Dec 05, 2006, 02:18 PM // 14:18

[QUOTE=freekedoutfish]"So you dont know then......"

Quote:

Obviously your ignoring the bit where I quite clearly stated that most quest DONT need heroes!

Your obviosly ignoring the bit you wrote yourself that said you need to check

Quote:

Anyway.

"You could have all that and not have to have them in your party, just do what alot of missions do and tag them onto the bottom."

*roles eyes*
[Did you also completely ignore the bit where I stated that one alternative to Heroes is to use NPCs!!!!! Which is where they "tag them onto the bottom." and you then have some guy following you around.

You would honestly rather have an NPC in every single one of the missions and quests instead of the required Hero?

An NPC who, when they died, the mission would fail?

Or, ZOMG they could just change it so you could res them, or make them party member 9, or or or or, there are other solutions. It can be improved, dont argue against it because you or others dont know how yet.

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Set her to non-aggressive! She will stay at the back,

I know that, but the point is, its not enancing it in any way if thats what your doing.

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Or lvl her up!!!!!

Just for a mission, and not because i want to use X hero, thanks for missing the point

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I admit I entered the game at lvl20 and obviously power-lvld my heroes, so I didnt have any issues with low lvl Heroes when doing missions!

But I find it hard to believe they are that hard to lvl up when doing the game from the start. But I dont know, so I wont comment on that.

They are not hard to level, its just annoying having to level them, or basicly have them stand out the way because you HAVE to use X hero for X mission, i think that could be improved, you dont, ermmmmmm ok...

Quote:

Your saying you dont want a pointless Hero there to hang at the back and do nothing.

Yet you want them to replace the hero with an NPC who will most likely attack every mob in the area and get itself killed and end the mission?

No, i just think there are better ways of doing it, heros auto leveling to your level, making them party member 9, whatever.

Quote:

Your only forced to use ONE hero in these missions. That leaves you 7 spaces. The first few parts of Nightfall are not that hard, that a 7 human team cant manage with one Hero in tore.

Just dont get it do you.

Its not about whether you can do it, ive beat it twice and both my koss and meloni are still under lvl 10-11, its about improving it.

and here we go again. (see below)

Quote:

But again, if their low level, then set then to non-aggressive and then your remaining human team can take the brunt of it.

You think thats the ideal solution rahter THAN MAKING THEM USEFULL, without having to invest time into it?

And like others have said, maybe i have an 8th guildee who wants to join (which does seem to happen alot), oh wait no sorry i have to take a hero.

Quote:

Im not trying to have a go at you or anyone here, but your all making very bad excuses as to why you cant use Heroes.

There bad excuses when you dont actually see the point of the argument.

The point is its workable, people know the workarounds, youve stated numerous workarounds, ive used them myself.

I know, lets make it so we dont have to work around it, but rather work WITH it.

Im sure you could push a cart with an oblong weel, dosnt mean you shouldnt try and make a round one.

Bryant Again · Dec 05, 2006, 02:38 PM // 14:38

I personally don't see much of a reason to complain with this. It can be inconvenient to level them, but I'd much rather do that than use PUGs.

aron searle · Dec 05, 2006, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

It can be inconvenient to level them,

Im sure when someone was trying to invent electricity your ancestor was saying candles do the job

slimreb · Dec 05, 2006, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

I'm not wasting Balthazaar Faction (or even time doing PvP when i don't want to) on skills i intend to capture on my Ranger (ie, elites) or ones that i can buy. Balthazaar Faction is reserved solely for Mesmer, Necromancer and Monk skills been as they're all on my other account.

Having to level hero isn't even the whole problem... The fact i have to take the frigging hero in the first place is. I'll level Koss up in my own time via quest rewards if i want. He has no place in my build. Thats where the problem is. If i wanted to use the frigging hero i would have him in my party already.

I see your points. I know your frustration as I was helping my wife and a guildie go through Nundu Bay the other day and it was a pain. The problem was both of them were playing as Dervish. So nothing like doing that mission with 3 dervish in the group. We completed the mission with masters but felt it could have been done much quicker if the dervish hero was not a requirement.

Quote:

Low level heros can be amusing anyway... watching Koss run upto the Master of Magic boss in Consulate Docks and dieing in 2 hits, getting ressed then running up and headbutting him

I sort of love taking low level heros when using my necro. There is nothing like a constant supply of corpses to use. I just throw Glyph of Sacrifice and Res Chant on my Ele to get the hero back up then repeat.

Overall though I sort of like the way things are right now but to each his/her own.

Bryant Again · Dec 05, 2006, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron searle

Im sure when someone was trying to invent electricity your ancestor was saying candles do the job

Why thank you.

freekedoutfish · Dec 05, 2006, 03:09 PM // 15:09

So your entire argument comes down to this;

You want them to make any required Hero in a mission or quest an NPC instead. Then have us babysit an NPC around most of the missions in nightfall?

"Or, ZOMG they could just change it so you could res them, or make them party member 9, or or or or, there are other solutions. It can be improved, dont argue against it because you or others dont know how yet."

NPCs in missions and quests are added to the party menu.

There are several ways in which Anet has chosen to use NPCs in GWs throughout all the games;

You have the NPC ghost in DOD which you can tell to follow or wait. He follows you, but he still attacks any creature he gets near. You have to heal him like a puppy.

You have the NPCs who you have no control over and you follow them. They walk right through every mob on screen without stopping, regardless of whether or not your being attacked. These ones tend to wonder off and get killed while your busy because they dont stop. You have to heal them.

You have the NPCs who you have no control over, who you follow and tend to agro everything on screen without giving you a chance. In high mob areas its a joke. You have to heal them.

You have NPCs who are considerate enough to walk ahead, but stop if you dont follow, or they stop infront of mobs, but still dont have the sense to walk back if they approach. You have to heal them again. But then you have to stand there waiting for when THEY choose to move on.

NPCs are useless and frustrating.

Plus you have the fact that if we're following them, we're set to move at what ever speed they do. And Anet can NEVER get that right.

They either move too fast and run into every mob on screen, agroing 2 at once. Or they move too slow and the missions takes 4 times longer then it needs to.

If it was a timed mission, you'd have no chance.

Then you have the major reason why you DONT use them. Henches and Heroes DONT heal NPCs.

If NF used NPCs in nearly every mission, you would have to find a human monk everytime, or set your secondary to monk just to keep them alive.

And they wont change it to allow us to res them. Like pets or anyone outside of your main part, you can't use res spells or signets on them.

This is probably in place to make sure you dont res monsters who's corpses lay around you.

NPCs are not an alternative to using Heroes. Heroes are 10 times better then that alternative.

Heroes we can heal, Heroes we can control, Heroes we can direct.

NPCs we can.......... DO NOTHING WITH. Their not going to change the way NPCs play out in missions, because hence the name "Non playable character".

I really cannot understand this want to replace character who you have CONTROL over, with mindless NPCs who just frustrate things.

Perhaps they could give more control to them, but in a very limited way as in DOD, with "I will stay here" and "I will follow.... now"! But that in itself is just frustrating to have to baby sit someone instead of having a useless tool instead.

BTW, if your Heroes were only lvl 10-11 when you finished the game, then thats your choice. Its no reflection on whether their good tools or not.

If you wont use them correctly, then ofcourse your going to hate them.

aron searle · Dec 05, 2006, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Quote:

So your entire argument comes down to this;

You want them to make any required Hero in a mission or quest an NPC instead. Then have us babysit an NPC around most of the missions in nightfall?

Try reading my post again then youll see how pointless and far of the mark your response was.

Instead of trying to rip apart others suggestions why not actually come up with some or read them properly first.

Seriiosly you just dont seem to be getting the point.